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From: Lakestake Rocketry <lakestake@gmail.com>
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Subject: [SS-VehDev] Fwd: [ROC-CHAT] Steel-toed nosecones...
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Good morning Vehicle Team,

I have been thinking a lot about the nose cone. We have a couple of people
with good composites expereince and skills, and an offer for Ti work. What
is the best design? If noone steps forward with knowledge by this evening
I'll look it up and let the team know. Any takers?

A friend of mine (aerospace engineer) has made an interesting offer...

Matt C

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: John Wahlquist <wahlquist@altrionet.com>
Date: Sep 6, 2005 12:23 AM=20
Subject: Re: [ROC-CHAT] Steel-toed nosecones...
To: ROC-CHAT@rocketeers.com

How about using foamed or fibrous bonded silica (aka shuttle tile) or maybe
even Carbon/Carbon. Much lighter than steel or aluminum and handles heat
even better. If someone wants to try this I can provide details on how to
make a compatible surface filler to smooth out the porous surface for the=
=20
silica products.

<JSW>

-----Original Message-----
From: Rocketry Organization of California (ROC) Chat List
Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 11:44 PM
To: ROC-CHAT@ROCKETEERS.COM
Subject: Re: [ROC-CHAT] Steel-toed nosecones...

> I've wondered about an ablative nose cone=20

Well, I could add a few extra coats of paint. I was also thinking
about shaving off the end of the nosecone and replacing it with some
matching light aluminum chunk with higher-temp epoxy dumped in from the=20
opposite (open) end of the nosecone. At least the majority of the
nosecone is plastic/fiberglass.

-Jim Moses

--- David Erbas-White <derbas@ARACHNEERING.COM > wrote:

> Jim Moses wrote:
>
> >At what speed is in necessary to do something different to a
> fiberglass
> >or plastic nosecone to deal with the nosecone heat and prohibit
> melting
> >of the nosecone?
> >
> >If I put some kind of a metal cap on the nosecone, how far down must
> it
> >extend to work correctly.
> >
> >
> >=20
> >
> >
>
> I don't know the answer, but in wondering about it, I've wondered
> about
> an ablative nose cone -- much like a re-entry heat shield. Thoughts?
>
> David Erbas-White=20
>





______________________________________________________
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/

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Good morning Vehicle Team,<br>
<br>
I have been thinking a lot about the nose cone.&nbsp; We have a couple of p=
eople<br>
with good composites expereince and skills, and an offer for Ti work.&nbsp;=
 What<br>
is the best design?&nbsp;&nbsp; If noone steps forward with knowledge by th=
is evening<br>
I'll look it up and let the team know.&nbsp; Any takers?<br>
<br>
A friend of mine (aerospace engineer) has made an interesting offer...<br>
<br>
Matt C<br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br><span class=3D"gma=
il_quote">From: <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">John Wahlquist</b> &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:wahlquist@altrionet.com">wahlquist@altrionet.com</a>&gt;<br>Dat=
e: Sep 6, 2005 12:23 AM
<br>Subject: Re: [ROC-CHAT] Steel-toed nosecones...<br>To: <a href=3D"mailt=
o:ROC-CHAT@rocketeers.com">ROC-CHAT@rocketeers.com</a><br><br></span>How ab=
out using foamed or fibrous bonded silica (aka shuttle tile) or maybe<br>

even Carbon/Carbon.&nbsp;&nbsp;Much lighter than steel or aluminum and hand=
les heat<br>even better.&nbsp;&nbsp;If someone wants to try this I can prov=
ide details on how to<br>make a compatible surface filler to smooth out the=
 porous surface for the
<br>silica products.<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&lt;JSW&gt;<br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Rocketry Organizati=
on of California (ROC) Chat List<br>Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 11:44 =
PM<br>To: <a href=3D"mailto:ROC-CHAT@ROCKETEERS.COM">
ROC-CHAT@ROCKETEERS.COM</a><br>Subject: Re: [ROC-CHAT] Steel-toed nosecones=
...<br><br>&gt; I've wondered about an ablative nose cone
<br><br>Well, I could add a few extra coats of paint.&nbsp;&nbsp;I was also=
 thinking<br>about shaving off the end of the nosecone and replacing it wit=
h some<br>matching light aluminum chunk with higher-temp epoxy dumped in fr=
om the
<br>opposite (open) end of the nosecone.&nbsp;&nbsp;At least the majority o=
f the<br>nosecone is plastic/fiberglass.<br><br>-Jim Moses<br><br>--- David=
 Erbas-White &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:derbas@ARACHNEERING.COM">derbas@ARACHNEE=
RING.COM
</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br>&gt; Jim Moses wrote:<br>&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;At what sp=
eed is in necessary to do something different to a<br>&gt; fiberglass<br>&g=
t; &gt;or plastic nosecone to deal with the nosecone heat and prohibit
<br>
&gt; melting<br>&gt; &gt;of the nosecone?<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;If I put=
 some kind of a metal cap on the nosecone, how far down must<br>&gt; it<br>=
&gt; &gt;extend to work correctly.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt; I don't know the answer, but in =
wondering about it, I've wondered<br>&gt; about<br>&gt; an ablative nose co=
ne -- much like a re-entry heat shield.&nbsp;&nbsp;Thoughts?<br>&gt;<br>&gt=
; David Erbas-White
<br>&gt;<br><br><br><br><br><br>___________________________________________=
___________<br>Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.=
<br><a href=3D"http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/">http://store.yahoo=
.com/redcross-donate3/
</a><br>


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Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 09:56:22 -0700
From: Lakestake Rocketry <lakestake@gmail.com>
To: "Ing. Roman Lev" <r-composites@seznam.cz>
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cc: SugarShot Vehicle Development Team <SS-VehDev@sugarshot.org>
Subject: [SS-VehDev] 
	Re: [SS-Main] to RN - temperature resis. hncmb/composite
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Hi R+,

Your recommendation by Richard is high praise.

I am CC:ing the rest of the Vehicle Development team on this request as you=
=20
have put
forward some good suggestions in this area.

Can you give us a little more detail in a proposed nosecone design using=20
composites?
I am interested in your thoughts on this separately from the question below=
.

We are most likely going to be going fast enough for a long enough time tha=
t=20
standard
expoxies won't be able to hold their strength considering the frictional=20
heating. I have
looked into high-temperature expoxies, but even they don't seem to be up to=
=20
the task.
What solutions have you run across that work in this arena?

Matt C

On 9/2/05, Ing. Roman Lev <r-composites@seznam.cz> wrote:
>=20
> details about themperature properties of composite/honeycomb structures -=
=20
> all standard resins/hardneres got Tg [ softening point ] about 80 degC, i=
n=20
> combination with better curing agents [ freely acessible ] about 110-115=
=20
> degC. HT tooling resins [ I have still about 3 lbs home ] after postcurin=
g=20
> Tg about 180 degC. Standard epoxy prepregs are about 150-170 degC.=20
> Polyimides over 220degC are unavailable for mee, they are too expensive [=
=20
> 200 $/ lbs... ], too difficult to work and not usually accessible.=20
> Combination with phenolic resin [ ablative prepregs made by Cytec etc ] -=
=20
> fabric must be special surface treatment, filament finishes of free=20
> accessible fabrics are not compactible with phenolics.
>=20
> lets say the cheapest one technology up to 115 degC
> better quality [ tooling ] resins up to 180 degC. filament type doesnt=20
> have any influence here [ short expositions, just minutes ].
>=20
> Do you want some samples to test? Its not a problem, what shape?
>=20
> r+
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> SS-Main mailing list
> SS-Main@sugarshot.org
> http://www.exrocketry.net/mailman/listinfo/ss-main
>

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Hi R+,<br>
<br>
Your recommendation by Richard is high praise.<br>
<br>
I am CC:ing the rest of the Vehicle Development team on this request as you=
 have put<br>
forward some good suggestions in this area.<br>
<br>
Can you give us a little more detail in a proposed nosecone design using co=
mposites?<br>
I am interested in your thoughts on this separately from the question below=
.<br>
<br>
We are most likely going to be going fast enough for a long enough time tha=
t standard<br>
expoxies won't be able to hold their strength considering the frictional he=
ating.&nbsp; I have<br>
looked into high-temperature expoxies, but even they don't seem to be up to=
 the task.<br>
What solutions have you run across that work in this arena?<br><br>
Matt C<br>
<br><div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 9/2/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendernam=
e">Ing. Roman Lev</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:r-composites@seznam.cz">r-compo=
sites@seznam.cz</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; =
padding-left: 1ex;">
details&nbsp;&nbsp;about
themperature properties of composite/honeycomb structures - all
standard resins/hardneres&nbsp;&nbsp;got Tg [ softening point ] about
80 degC, in combination with better curing agents [ freely acessible ]
about 110-115 degC. HT tooling resins [ I have still about 3 lbs home ]
after postcuring Tg about 180 degC. Standard epoxy prepregs are about
150-170 degC. Polyimides over 220degC are unavailable for mee, they are
too expensive [ 200 $/ lbs... ], too difficult to work&nbsp;&nbsp;and
not usually accessible. Combination with phenolic resin&nbsp;&nbsp;[
ablative prepregs made by Cytec etc ] - fabric must be special surface
treatment, filament finishes of free accessible fabrics are not
compactible with phenolics.<br><br>lets say the cheapest one technology up =
to 115 degC<br>better
quality [ tooling ] resins up to 180 degC. filament type doesnt have
any influence here [ short expositions, just minutes ].<br><br>Do you want =
some samples to test? Its not a problem, what shape?<br><br>r+<br><br><br>_=
______________________________________________<br>SS-Main mailing list
<br><a href=3D"mailto:SS-Main@sugarshot.org">SS-Main@sugarshot.org</a><br><=
a href=3D"http://www.exrocketry.net/mailman/listinfo/ss-main">http://www.ex=
rocketry.net/mailman/listinfo/ss-main</a><br></blockquote></div><br>

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Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 09:57:11 -0700
From: Lakestake Rocketry <lakestake@gmail.com>
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Subject: [SS-VehDev] 
	Re: [SS-Main] to RN - temperature resis. hncmb/composite
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Hi William,

That sounds interesting, do you have a contact for them? I would not
mind following up on these threads for the group.

Matt

On 9/2/05, william colburn <space1space@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>=20
> SORAC developed Phenolic/Silica Fabric technology
> which could be used for the NC Tip.
>=20
> BC
>=20
> --- Ing. Roman Lev <r-composites@seznam.cz> wrote:
>=20
> > details about themperature properties of
> > composite/honeycomb structures - all standard
> > resins/hardneres got Tg [ softening point ] about
> > 80 degC, in combination with better curing agents [
> > freely acessible ] about 110-115 degC. HT tooling
> > resins [ I have still about 3 lbs home ] after
> > postcuring Tg about 180 degC. Standard epoxy
> > prepregs are about 150-170 degC. Polyimides over
> > 220degC are unavailable for mee, they are too
> > expensive [ 200 $/ lbs... ], too difficult to work
> > and not usually accessible. Combination with
> > phenolic resin [ ablative prepregs made by Cytec
> > etc ] - fabric must be special surface treatment,
> > filament finishes of free accessible fabrics are not
> > compactible with phenolics.
> >
> > lets say the cheapest one technology up to 115 degC
> > better quality [ tooling ] resins up to 180 degC.
> > filament type doesnt have any influence here [ short
> > expositions, just minutes ].
> >
> > Do you want some samples to test? Its not a problem,
> > what shape?
> >
> > r+
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > SS-Main mailing list
> > SS-Main@sugarshot.org
> > http://www.exrocketry.net/mailman/listinfo/ss-main
> >
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> SS-Main mailing list
> SS-Main@sugarshot.org
> http://www.exrocketry.net/mailman/listinfo/ss-main
>

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Hi William,<br>
<br>
That sounds interesting,&nbsp; do you have a contact for them?&nbsp; I woul=
d not<br>
mind following up on these threads for the group.<br>
<br>
Matt<br><br><div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 9/2/05, <b class=3D"gmail_s=
endername">william colburn</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:space1space@sbcglobal.=
net">space1space@sbcglobal.net</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt =
0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
SORAC developed Phenolic/Silica Fabric technology<br>which could be used fo=
r the NC Tip.<br><br>BC<br><br>--- Ing. Roman Lev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:r-c=
omposites@seznam.cz">r-composites@seznam.cz</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br>&gt; deta=
ils&nbsp;&nbsp;about themperature properties of
<br>&gt; composite/honeycomb structures - all standard<br>&gt; resins/hardn=
eres&nbsp;&nbsp;got Tg [ softening point ] about<br>&gt; 80 degC, in combin=
ation with better curing agents [<br>&gt; freely acessible ] about 110-115 =
degC. HT tooling
<br>&gt; resins [ I have still about 3 lbs home ] after<br>&gt; postcuring =
Tg about 180 degC. Standard epoxy<br>&gt; prepregs are about 150-170 degC. =
Polyimides over<br>&gt; 220degC are unavailable for mee, they are too<br>
&gt; expensive [ 200 $/ lbs... ], too difficult to work<br>&gt; and not usu=
ally accessible. Combination with<br>&gt; phenolic resin&nbsp;&nbsp;[ ablat=
ive prepregs made by Cytec<br>&gt; etc ] - fabric must be special surface t=
reatment,
<br>&gt; filament finishes of free accessible fabrics are not<br>&gt; compa=
ctible with phenolics.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; lets say the cheapest one technology=
 up to 115 degC<br>&gt; better quality [ tooling ] resins up to 180 degC.
<br>&gt; filament type doesnt have any influence here [ short<br>&gt; expos=
itions, just minutes ].<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Do you want some samples to test? I=
ts not a problem,<br>&gt; what shape?<br>&gt;<br>&gt; r+<br>&gt;<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; _______________________________________________<br>&gt; SS-Main ma=
iling list<br>&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:SS-Main@sugarshot.org">SS-Main@sugarsh=
ot.org</a><br>&gt; <a href=3D"http://www.exrocketry.net/mailman/listinfo/ss=
-main">
http://www.exrocketry.net/mailman/listinfo/ss-main</a><br>&gt;<br><br>_____=
__________________________________________<br>SS-Main mailing list<br><a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:SS-Main@sugarshot.org">SS-Main@sugarshot.org</a><br><a href=3D=
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From roman.lev@aero.cz Tue Sep  6 10:03:00 2005
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Subject: RE: [SS-VehDev] Fwd: [ROC-CHAT] Steel-toed nosecones...
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Hello guys,
 
I would propose some test, I would manufacture honeycomb snadwich test samples with embeded thermocouples, one of them with cork thermal outside insulation, thermal insulation would be similar as "Delta Velocity" nosecone, except structure [ honeycomb/aramide or honeycomb/carbon/aramide ]. Per article is 2mm thick outside cork insulation capable survive, see link
 
http://www.compositesworld.com/hpc/issues/2004/September/561
 
(3) pages together, interesting. The best would be for now some thermal simulations- is somebody capable to do this [ does somebady have some software ]?
 
R+
 
________________________________

Od: ss-vehdev-bounces@sugarshot.org za uživatele Lakestake Rocketry
Odesláno: út 06/09/2005 2:21 odp.
Komu: SugarShot Vehicle Development Team
Předmět: [SS-VehDev] Fwd: [ROC-CHAT] Steel-toed nosecones...


Good morning Vehicle Team,

I have been thinking a lot about the nose cone.  We have a couple of people
with good composites expereince and skills, and an offer for Ti work.  What
is the best design?   If noone steps forward with knowledge by this evening
I'll look it up and let the team know.  Any takers?

A friend of mine (aerospace engineer) has made an interesting offer...

Matt C

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: John Wahlquist <wahlquist@altrionet.com>
Date: Sep 6, 2005 12:23 AM 
Subject: Re: [ROC-CHAT] Steel-toed nosecones...
To: ROC-CHAT@rocketeers.com

How about using foamed or fibrous bonded silica (aka shuttle tile) or maybe
even Carbon/Carbon.  Much lighter than steel or aluminum and handles heat
even better.  If someone wants to try this I can provide details on how to
make a compatible surface filler to smooth out the porous surface for the 
silica products.

        <JSW>

-----Original Message-----
From: Rocketry Organization of California (ROC) Chat List
Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 11:44 PM
To: ROC-CHAT@ROCKETEERS.COM
Subject: Re: [ROC-CHAT] Steel-toed nosecones...

> I've wondered about an ablative nose cone 

Well, I could add a few extra coats of paint.  I was also thinking
about shaving off the end of the nosecone and replacing it with some
matching light aluminum chunk with higher-temp epoxy dumped in from the 
opposite (open) end of the nosecone.  At least the majority of the
nosecone is plastic/fiberglass.

-Jim Moses

--- David Erbas-White <derbas@ARACHNEERING.COM > wrote:

> Jim Moses wrote:
>
> >At what speed is in necessary to do something different to a
> fiberglass
> >or plastic nosecone to deal with the nosecone heat and prohibit 
> melting
> >of the nosecone?
> >
> >If I put some kind of a metal cap on the nosecone, how far down must
> it
> >extend to work correctly.
> >
> >
> > 
> >
> >
>
> I don't know the answer, but in wondering about it, I've wondered
> about
> an ablative nose cone -- much like a re-entry heat shield.  Thoughts?
>
> David Erbas-White 
>





______________________________________________________
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/ 


From David.Smith2@perkinelmer.com Tue Sep  6 11:47:19 2005
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To: "'roman.lev@aero.cz'" <roman.lev@aero.cz>, lakestake@gmail.com,
   SS-VehDev@sugarshot.org
Subject: RE: [SS-VehDev] Fwd: [ROC-CHAT] Steel-toed nosecones...
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Gents:
We haven't arrived on a final configuration as we are still studying the
cost/benefits of the available shapes.

It is my understanding Hans Toft is lined up to help up with the nosecone
optimization. Let's complete the noseconse shape selection, then take a
"first pass" at the thermal and aero loading. At that point, construction
methods and material types can be addressed.

Cheers-
Dave



-----Original Message-----
From: roman.lev@aero.cz [mailto:roman.lev@aero.cz] 
Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 1:07 PM
To: lakestake@gmail.com; SS-VehDev@sugarshot.org
Subject: RE: [SS-VehDev] Fwd: [ROC-CHAT] Steel-toed nosecones...

Hello guys,
 
I would propose some test, I would manufacture honeycomb snadwich test
samples with embeded thermocouples, one of them with cork thermal outside
insulation, thermal insulation would be similar as "Delta Velocity"
nosecone, except structure [ honeycomb/aramide or honeycomb/carbon/aramide
]. Per article is 2mm thick outside cork insulation capable survive, see
link
 
http://www.compositesworld.com/hpc/issues/2004/September/561
 
(3) pages together, interesting. The best would be for now some thermal
simulations- is somebody capable to do this [ does somebady have some
software ]?
 
R+
 
________________________________

Od: ss-vehdev-bounces@sugarshot.org za uživatele Lakestake Rocketry
Odesláno: út 06/09/2005 2:21 odp.
Komu: SugarShot Vehicle Development Team
Předmět: [SS-VehDev] Fwd: [ROC-CHAT] Steel-toed nosecones...


Good morning Vehicle Team,

I have been thinking a lot about the nose cone.  We have a couple of people
with good composites expereince and skills, and an offer for Ti work.  What
is the best design?   If noone steps forward with knowledge by this evening
I'll look it up and let the team know.  Any takers?

A friend of mine (aerospace engineer) has made an interesting offer...

Matt C

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: John Wahlquist <wahlquist@altrionet.com>
Date: Sep 6, 2005 12:23 AM 
Subject: Re: [ROC-CHAT] Steel-toed nosecones...
To: ROC-CHAT@rocketeers.com

How about using foamed or fibrous bonded silica (aka shuttle tile) or maybe
even Carbon/Carbon.  Much lighter than steel or aluminum and handles heat
even better.  If someone wants to try this I can provide details on how to
make a compatible surface filler to smooth out the porous surface for the 
silica products.

        <JSW>

-----Original Message-----
From: Rocketry Organization of California (ROC) Chat List
Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 11:44 PM
To: ROC-CHAT@ROCKETEERS.COM
Subject: Re: [ROC-CHAT] Steel-toed nosecones...

> I've wondered about an ablative nose cone 

Well, I could add a few extra coats of paint.  I was also thinking
about shaving off the end of the nosecone and replacing it with some
matching light aluminum chunk with higher-temp epoxy dumped in from the 
opposite (open) end of the nosecone.  At least the majority of the
nosecone is plastic/fiberglass.

-Jim Moses

--- David Erbas-White <derbas@ARACHNEERING.COM > wrote:

> Jim Moses wrote:
>
> >At what speed is in necessary to do something different to a
> fiberglass
> >or plastic nosecone to deal with the nosecone heat and prohibit 
> melting
> >of the nosecone?
> >
> >If I put some kind of a metal cap on the nosecone, how far down must
> it
> >extend to work correctly.
> >
> >
> > 
> >
> >
>
> I don't know the answer, but in wondering about it, I've wondered
> about
> an ablative nose cone -- much like a re-entry heat shield.  Thoughts?
>
> David Erbas-White 
>





______________________________________________________
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/ 


_______________________________________________
SS-VehDev mailing list
SS-VehDev@sugarshot.org
http://www.exrocketry.net/mailman/listinfo/ss-vehdev

From space1space@sbcglobal.net Tue Sep  6 11:51:43 2005
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From: william colburn <space1space@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [SS-VehDev] Fwd: [ROC-CHAT] Steel-toed nosecones...
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I have e mailed John Cippola with a request to run NC
shapes for us on his CFD software. Failing that I
requested he supply a copy of the software to a team
member to do the same in exchange for a banner on our
site.

Legacy has NC's in our regime made from Phenolic
(arcas), aluminum (many, sometimes with a differing
tip) ((csxt used aluminum with a steel tip to do over
70 miles very successfully) or aluminum with an
ablative coating often as thin as .02 inch. Titanium
has been used in flight regimes at this mach level for
very long durations. 

But a second consideration is the temperature of the
interior. With such a short exposure time, this should
be easily dealt with by an ablative coating (which
removes heat from the surface) or with internal
insulation.

The third consideration is survivability. The NC
should be able to survive not a full ballistic impact
(never happen!) but at leat 100 fps or so due to a
shredded or streamihng recovery chute. Survive to the
extent of protecting the payload and instrumentation.

I am all for using technolgy at the edge providing it
is not overkill, increase weight, or decrease
reliability. I like the KISS principle (keep it
simple....) happens to be a good engineering axiom.

So are we ready to plug these concepts into a matrix
as yet? I don't think so. I want to see what John
comes up with in his CFD analysis for temperatures and
a shape. That may point us to a specific concept.

BC

--- Lakestake Rocketry <lakestake@gmail.com> wrote:

> Good morning Vehicle Team,
> 
> I have been thinking a lot about the nose cone. We
> have a couple of people
> with good composites expereince and skills, and an
> offer for Ti work. What
> is the best design? If noone steps forward with
> knowledge by this evening
> I'll look it up and let the team know. Any takers?
> 
> A friend of mine (aerospace engineer) has made an
> interesting offer...
> 
> Matt C
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: John Wahlquist <wahlquist@altrionet.com>
> Date: Sep 6, 2005 12:23 AM 
> Subject: Re: [ROC-CHAT] Steel-toed nosecones...
> To: ROC-CHAT@rocketeers.com
> 
> How about using foamed or fibrous bonded silica (aka
> shuttle tile) or maybe
> even Carbon/Carbon. Much lighter than steel or
> aluminum and handles heat
> even better. If someone wants to try this I can
> provide details on how to
> make a compatible surface filler to smooth out the
> porous surface for the 
> silica products.
> 
> <JSW>
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rocketry Organization of California (ROC) Chat
> List
> Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 11:44 PM
> To: ROC-CHAT@ROCKETEERS.COM
> Subject: Re: [ROC-CHAT] Steel-toed nosecones...
> 
> > I've wondered about an ablative nose cone 
> 
> Well, I could add a few extra coats of paint. I was
> also thinking
> about shaving off the end of the nosecone and
> replacing it with some
> matching light aluminum chunk with higher-temp epoxy
> dumped in from the 
> opposite (open) end of the nosecone. At least the
> majority of the
> nosecone is plastic/fiberglass.
> 
> -Jim Moses
> 
> --- David Erbas-White <derbas@ARACHNEERING.COM >
> wrote:
> 
> > Jim Moses wrote:
> >
> > >At what speed is in necessary to do something
> different to a
> > fiberglass
> > >or plastic nosecone to deal with the nosecone
> heat and prohibit
> > melting
> > >of the nosecone?
> > >
> > >If I put some kind of a metal cap on the
> nosecone, how far down must
> > it
> > >extend to work correctly.
> > >
> > >
> > > 
> > >
> > >
> >
> > I don't know the answer, but in wondering about
> it, I've wondered
> > about
> > an ablative nose cone -- much like a re-entry heat
> shield. Thoughts?
> >
> > David Erbas-White 
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
______________________________________________________
> Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief
> effort.
> http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/
> > _______________________________________________
> SS-VehDev mailing list
> SS-VehDev@sugarshot.org
> http://www.exrocketry.net/mailman/listinfo/ss-vehdev
> 

From lakestake@gmail.com Tue Sep  6 21:31:18 2005
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From: Lakestake Rocketry <lakestake@gmail.com>
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Subject: [SS-VehDev] Fwd: [ROC-CHAT] Ablative nose cone - not
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------=_Part_2955_26243432.1126067723092
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A cross post on a similar topic to what we are up against.

I have a couple of friends planning 100k flights this month on
AP.

Matt

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Bill <>
Date: Sep 6, 2005 6:32 PM
Subject: Re: [ROC-CHAT] Ablative nose cone - not

I've gone Mach 2 with a 1.5" LOC nosecone -- those things are strong, but=
=20
that DID blister the clear coat on the nosecone and fins.

Went to Mach 2 once with an off-the-shelf fiberglass conical nosecone, over=
=20
Mach for 10 seconds. Nosecone landed intact but crushed like an eggshell=20
when I went to pick it up.

I've had no problems yet with conical nosecones I have built myself from=20
carbon cloth and Aeropoxy. After cure, I bake the laminated nosecone in an=
=20
oven at 350F for a few minutes (got that idea from Kurt G.). Then I saw off=
=20
the end, drill and tap the plugged forward end of the nosecone and insert a=
=20
piece of 3/8" threaded rod (usually aluminum). I build up around the rod=20
with strands of carbon fiber and JB Weld until it is larger then the conica=
l=20
profile, then sand it to shape with a belt sander. The finished product is=
=20
needle sharp, metal blending into composite. I paint it with some 1000F=20
paint from McMaster Carr. Time consuming, but low tech.

I haven't destroyed one of those yet, but I'll keep trying -- even=20
lake-staked one into the playa with no damage. On a 'fast' I600 flight I di=
d=20
last month (5 oz. min ID rocket), one layer of composite melted off from th=
e=20
fins, but the nosecone showed no sign of wear.

BTW, as I recall, NASA decided that the ablative coating on the X-15 was a=
=20
big mistake -- it opaqued the pilot's windows.

------=_Part_2955_26243432.1126067723092
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline

A cross post on a similar topic to what we are up against.<br>
<br>
I have a couple of friends planning 100k flights this month on<br>
AP.<br>
<br>
Matt<br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br><span class=3D"gmail=
_quote">From: <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Bill </b>&lt;&gt;<br>Date: Sep =
6, 2005 6:32 PM<br>Subject: Re: [ROC-CHAT] Ablative nose cone - not<br><br>
</span>


 =20
 =20


I've gone Mach 2 with a 1.5&quot; LOC nosecone -- those things are strong,
but that DID blister the clear coat on the nosecone and fins.<br>
<br>
Went to Mach 2 once with an off-the-shelf fiberglass conical nosecone,
over Mach for 10 seconds.&nbsp; Nosecone landed intact but crushed like an
eggshell when I went to pick it up.<br>
<br>
I've had no problems yet with conical nosecones I have built myself
from
carbon cloth and Aeropoxy.&nbsp; After cure, I bake the laminated nosecone
in an oven at
350F for a few minutes (got that idea from Kurt G.).&nbsp; Then I saw off
the end, drill
and tap the plugged forward end of the nosecone and insert a piece of
3/8&quot; threaded rod (usually aluminum).&nbsp; I build up around the rod =
with
strands of carbon fiber and JB Weld until it is larger then the conical
profile, then sand it to shape with a belt sander.&nbsp; The finished
product is needle sharp, metal blending into composite.&nbsp; I paint it
with some 1000F paint from McMaster Carr.&nbsp; Time consuming, but low tec=
h.<br>
<br>
I haven't destroyed one of those yet, but I'll keep trying -- even
lake-staked one into the playa with no damage.&nbsp; On a 'fast'&nbsp; I600
flight I did
last month (5 oz. min ID rocket), one layer of composite
melted off from the fins, but the nosecone showed no sign of wear.<br>
<br>
BTW, as I recall, NASA decided that the ablative coating on the X-15
was a big mistake -- it opaqued the pilot's windows.<br><span class=3D"sg">
<br>
</span>

------=_Part_2955_26243432.1126067723092--
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From: william colburn <space1space@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [SS-VehDev] Fwd: [ROC-CHAT] Ablative nose cone - not
To: lakestake@gmail.com,
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Very interesting post as it refers to actual
experience. All epoxies are similar in that they are
good in service to their cure temperature,
approximately. Of course curing at 1000 F doesn't
work!

The 1000 F paint is an ablative coating of sorts.

That is the way to do an NC tip: you make a conical
frustum  plug with a tapped hole which is inserted
into the NC which has been also truncated. This then
creates a flush surface for mounting the machined tip
with a short threaded stud. The cone is then captured
between the tip and the inner plug.

BC

--- Lakestake Rocketry <lakestake@gmail.com> wrote:

> A cross post on a similar topic to what we are up
> against.
> 
> I have a couple of friends planning 100k flights
> this month on
> AP.
> 
> Matt
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Bill <>
> Date: Sep 6, 2005 6:32 PM
> Subject: Re: [ROC-CHAT] Ablative nose cone - not
> 
> I've gone Mach 2 with a 1.5" LOC nosecone -- those
> things are strong, but 
> that DID blister the clear coat on the nosecone and
> fins.
> 
> Went to Mach 2 once with an off-the-shelf fiberglass
> conical nosecone, over 
> Mach for 10 seconds. Nosecone landed intact but
> crushed like an eggshell 
> when I went to pick it up.
> 
> I've had no problems yet with conical nosecones I
> have built myself from 
> carbon cloth and Aeropoxy. After cure, I bake the
> laminated nosecone in an 
> oven at 350F for a few minutes (got that idea from
> Kurt G.). Then I saw off 
> the end, drill and tap the plugged forward end of
> the nosecone and insert a 
> piece of 3/8" threaded rod (usually aluminum). I
> build up around the rod 
> with strands of carbon fiber and JB Weld until it is
> larger then the conical 
> profile, then sand it to shape with a belt sander.
> The finished product is 
> needle sharp, metal blending into composite. I paint
> it with some 1000F 
> paint from McMaster Carr. Time consuming, but low
> tech.
> 
> I haven't destroyed one of those yet, but I'll keep
> trying -- even 
> lake-staked one into the playa with no damage. On a
> 'fast' I600 flight I did 
> last month (5 oz. min ID rocket), one layer of
> composite melted off from the 
> fins, but the nosecone showed no sign of wear.
> 
> BTW, as I recall, NASA decided that the ablative
> coating on the X-15 was a 
> big mistake -- it opaqued the pilot's windows.
> > _______________________________________________
> SS-VehDev mailing list
> SS-VehDev@sugarshot.org
> http://www.exrocketry.net/mailman/listinfo/ss-vehdev
> 

From space1space@sbcglobal.net Wed Sep  7 18:53:25 2005
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Subject: [SS-VehDev] launcher specs
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Guys,

We need to characterize the vehicle to provide specs
to the GSE people to firm up the launcher design.

I just ran RockSim (fairly accurate sim using military
developed algoriths) with and w/o launch lugs.

349K w/o and 331K with. Clearly the launchlugs will
have an effect on our flight.

If we are indeed s going to get 331K, we need not
worry, but I think the sims that Hans and Rich are
running hovere right at 100 km. So 4 KM would make a
difference.

I am going to address the group as a whole on this
issue and we should be working behind the scenes to
come up with a recommendation.

BC
From space1space@sbcglobal.net Wed Sep  7 19:18:36 2005
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Subject: [SS-VehDev] Second run
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I tried the same RockSim Sim but with the .75 Power
NC.

I got 314K feet w/o lugs, 296K feet w/lugs. Same 18K
feet loss w/lugs.

BC
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To: Andrej Vrbec <andre09091978@yahoo.com>, ss-vehdev@sugarshot.org
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Subject: [SS-VehDev] Re: [SS-Main] Igniters
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Andrej,

For the full scale, if you can create the pyrogen to
accept a 1/2-20 NF class 2 male igniter thread, I can
supply qualified 1 amp/1 watt initiators which are
range-safe.  But we also need them to thread into
essentially a 3-way valve that will act as a manual
safe-arm. This can be manually operated from outside
the vehicle at the last minute, or turned
electromechanically to arm the second phase just prior
to launch.

Appreciate the thought on the bulkhead, it looks great
for the 1/4 scale.

I am copying Rich as this is really his bailiwick.
Safety should also be on baord with this issue too.

BC

--- Andrej Vrbec <andre09091978@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Hi Guys
> 
>  
> We determined basic igniter configuration. 
> Second phase igniter will be classic pyrogen
> igniter.
> For 1/4 scale motor it will use single unrestricted
> grain (KN-Dextrose doped with Fe2O3). Burn time is
> 0,2
> seconds. For full scale motor, geometry of the grain
> will be modified to achieve the same burn time.
> Igniter will be retained in the forward bulkhead by
> a
> snap ring (see drawing). Seal will be provided by
> O-rings. Igniter grain will be ignited with a
> primer:
> 60% black powder, 40% magnesium powder. 
> First phase igniter is a bit tricky. It will have to
> be casing-less in order not to block any flow from
> the
> second phase. Plan is to use a fast burning grain
> which would be glued to the RNX delay plug. Grain
> will
> be cast of modified KN-Dextrose (certain additive
> will
> have to be added to increase burn rate at atmosferic
> pressure- magnesium powder shows promising results).
> Another problem is how to attach the igniter leads.
> Due to poor mechanical strenght of the propellant we
> recommend that igniter leads would be secured with
> screw or glue so that they can't be accidentaly
> pulled
> out. 
> I attached a drawing of forward bulkhead for 1/4
> scale
> motor with measurements of cavity where the igniter
> will be placed. We would also like to know, if we
> send
> you igniter casing or do you prefer to machine it
> yourself.
> When is 1/4 scale motor planed to be static tested?
> We
> will test both types of igniters in the following
> days
> and let you know about the results.
> 
> Andrej
> 
> 
> 
> 	
> 		
>
______________________________________________________
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From space1space@sbcglobal.net Thu Sep  8 14:36:27 2005
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Subject: [SS-VehDev] first cut matrix
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--0-1890762440-1126215633=:44208
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Here is an xls matrix that is an example of what we
should be doing for each portion of the vehicle we are
responsible for.

Following this simple analysis, we will choose the
direction for the group, propose it to the group, and
accept the fiery retribution of dozens of disappointed
rocketeers:)

BC
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--0-1890762440-1126215633=:44208--
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Subject: [SS-VehDev] NC Matrix
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--0-931946722-1126223070=:31917
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The matrix gives about the same score for all
candidates. Since it is probably about +/- .5 or so,
the values are really the same.

I am rather in favor of Andrej's composite-over-
honeycomb version. It comes out about even with the
others and even better if he uses carbon composite
too.

The idea of adding the attachment points for
instruments and hardware as nutserts is appealing too.

The Titanium is the high tech version and would be
free to us. It suffers from needing insulation for the
inner workings.

Comments?

BC
--0-931946722-1126223070=:31917
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From lakestake@gmail.com Fri Sep  9 00:25:14 2005
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Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 00:29:20 -0700
From: Lakestake Rocketry <lakestake@gmail.com>
To: SugarShot Vehicle Development Team <SS-VehDev@sugarshot.org>
Subject: Re: [SS-VehDev] first cut matrix
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Good start Bill,

What are your thoughts on the 'portions of the vehicle'?

Is a list like this detailed enough?
Nosecone
Payload Bay
Recovery Bay
Airframe
Fins
Motor retention
Launch Lugs
Electronics conduits

Matt

On 9/8/05, william colburn <space1space@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>=20
> Here is an xls matrix that is an example of what we
> should be doing for each portion of the vehicle we are
> responsible for.
>=20
> Following this simple analysis, we will choose the
> direction for the group, propose it to the group, and
> accept the fiery retribution of dozens of disappointed
> rocketeers:)
>=20
> BC
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> SS-VehDev mailing list
> SS-VehDev@sugarshot.org
> http://www.exrocketry.net/mailman/listinfo/ss-vehdev
>=20
>=20
>=20
>

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Good start Bill,<br>
<br>
What are your thoughts on the 'portions of the vehicle'?<br>
<br>
Is a list like this detailed enough?<br>
Nosecone<br>
Payload Bay<br>
Recovery Bay<br>
Airframe<br>
Fins<br>
Motor retention<br>
Launch Lugs<br>
Electronics conduits<br>
<br>
Matt<br>
<br><div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 9/8/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendernam=
e">william colburn</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:space1space@sbcglobal.net">spa=
ce1space@sbcglobal.net</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt =
0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Here is an xls matrix that is an example of what we<br>should be doing for =
each portion of the vehicle we are<br>responsible for.<br><br>Following thi=
s simple analysis, we will choose the<br>direction for the group, propose i=
t to the group, and
<br>accept the fiery retribution of dozens of disappointed<br>rocketeers:)<=
br><br>BC<br><br>_______________________________________________<br>SS-VehD=
ev mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:SS-VehDev@sugarshot.org">SS-VehDev@sug=
arshot.org
</a><br><a href=3D"http://www.exrocketry.net/mailman/listinfo/ss-vehdev">ht=
tp://www.exrocketry.net/mailman/listinfo/ss-vehdev</a><br><br><br><br></blo=
ckquote></div><br>

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From lakestake@gmail.com Fri Sep  9 00:52:52 2005
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Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 00:56:58 -0700
From: Lakestake Rocketry <lakestake@gmail.com>
To: SugarShot Vehicle Development Team <SS-VehDev@sugarshot.org>
Subject: Re: [SS-VehDev] NC Matrix
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OK Bill, you asked for comments... These are not warranted to be
on target, but hopefully they can stimulate some converstaion.

What are the environments requirements/limitations of our nosecone
mounted instrumentation? I suggest we be more specific here.
What are the acceptable temperature, vibration and 'gee' extremes?
For these numbers I think we can specify something standard and
have the payload team get back to us if they have something more
delicate in mind.

You mention a 100fps impact of the airframe, what impact force will
this translate to for the instruments after insulation by the airframe
and payload bay? What shock/vibration/heat insulation does the
design then need to deliver?

Is 10 seconds enough for the heat time? I agree that the burn will
be short, but we may still be heating (or at least not cooling) for the
first part of our initial coast while we are still in some atmosphere.

As we may be talking about composites on the nose, fins or airframe
'too hot' may be lower than the 1000' you have specified. Do we have
any sounding rocket heating data to work from? It would be interesting
to have an idea what environment we will be facing.

What about adding a Concept 4 to the matrix. It would be a hybrid NC
formed from a composite cone with wither a metal tip or metal sheathing.
We might be able to get the best of both worlds.

Do you have definitions for each of the columns? I think many are
self-explanitory, but as we are dealing with an international team it
might be good to jot down a quick sentence or two about what you
are intending.

I am not sure on what basis the numbers in the columns 'Legacy',
'Engineering Evaluation' and 'In/Out' are generated.

Could a short list of the factors that weighed into each number be included
with the matrix? This would allow other team members to understand and
contribute to how the numbers are derived.

I notice a two in the availability column for Titanium. Isn't this already=
=20
handled
by our vendor? If so shouldn't this number be higher as this is no longer a=
n
impediment to selecting that design? I agree that Carbon is harder to find,
but there are many good sources in LA, I have never had a problem getting
just about any grade on a moment's notice. My suggestion, lacking your
insight as to what other factors went into the numbers, is that the=20
availability
values should be 4 across the board.

Hope these thoughts help. Anyone else have ideas? That's what we are on
the team for!

Matt

On 9/8/05, william colburn <space1space@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>=20
> The matrix gives about the same score for all
> candidates. Since it is probably about +/- .5 or so,
> the values are really the same.
>=20
> I am rather in favor of Andrej's composite-over-
> honeycomb version. It comes out about even with the
> others and even better if he uses carbon composite
> too.
>=20
> The idea of adding the attachment points for
> instruments and hardware as nutserts is appealing too.
>=20
> The Titanium is the high tech version and would be
> free to us. It suffers from needing insulation for the
> inner workings.
>=20
> Comments?
>=20
> BC
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> SS-VehDev mailing list
> SS-VehDev@sugarshot.org
> http://www.exrocketry.net/mailman/listinfo/ss-vehdev
>=20
>=20
>=20
>

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OK Bill, you asked for comments...&nbsp; These are not warranted to be<br>
on target, but hopefully they can stimulate some converstaion.<br>
<br>
What are the environments requirements/limitations of our nosecone<br>
mounted instrumentation?&nbsp; I suggest we be more specific here.<br>
What are the acceptable temperature, vibration and 'gee' extremes?<br>

For these numbers I think we can specify something standard and<br>

have the payload team get back to us if they have something more<br>
delicate in mind.<br>
<br>
You mention a 100fps impact of the airframe, what impact force will<br>
this translate to for the instruments after insulation by the airframe<br>
and payload bay?&nbsp; What shock/vibration/heat insulation does the<br>
design then need to deliver?<br>
<br>
Is 10 seconds enough for the heat time?&nbsp; I agree that the burn will<br=
>
be short, but we may still be heating (or at least not cooling) for the<br>
first part of our initial coast while we are still in some atmosphere.<br>
<br>
As we may be talking about composites on the nose, fins or airframe<br>
'too hot' may be lower than the 1000' you have specified.&nbsp; Do we have<=
br>
any sounding rocket heating data to work from?&nbsp; It would be interestin=
g<br>
to have an idea what environment we will be facing.<br>
<br>
What about adding a Concept 4 to the matrix.&nbsp; It would be a hybrid NC<=
br>
formed from a composite cone with wither a metal tip or metal sheathing.<br=
>
We might be able to get the best of both worlds.<br>
<br>
Do you have definitions for each of the columns?&nbsp; I think many are<br>
self-explanitory, but as we are dealing with an international team it<br>
might be good to jot down a quick sentence or two about what you<br>
are intending.<br>
<br>
I am not sure on what basis the numbers in the columns 'Legacy',<br>
'Engineering Evaluation' and 'In/Out' are generated.<br>
<br>
Could a short list of the factors that weighed into each number be included=
<br>
with the matrix?&nbsp; This would allow other team members to understand an=
d<br>
contribute to how the numbers are derived.<br>
<br>
I notice a two in the availability column for Titanium.&nbsp; Isn't this al=
ready handled<br>
by our vendor?&nbsp; If so shouldn't this number be higher as this is no lo=
nger an<br>
impediment to selecting that design?&nbsp; I agree that Carbon is harder to=
 find,<br>
but there are many good sources in LA, I have never had a problem getting<b=
r>
just about any grade on a moment's notice.&nbsp; My suggestion, lacking you=
r<br>
insight as to what other factors went into the numbers, is that the availab=
ility<br>
values should be 4 across the board.<br>
<br>
Hope these thoughts help.&nbsp; Anyone else have ideas?&nbsp; That's what w=
e are on<br>
the team for!<br>
<br>
Matt<br><br><div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 9/8/05, <b class=3D"gmail_s=
endername">william colburn</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:space1space@sbcglobal.=
net">space1space@sbcglobal.net</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt =
0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
The matrix gives about the same score for all<br>candidates. Since it is pr=
obably about +/- .5 or so,<br>the values are really the same.<br><br>I am r=
ather in favor of Andrej's composite-over-<br>honeycomb version. It comes o=
ut about even with the
<br>others and even better if he uses carbon composite<br>too.<br><br>The i=
dea of adding the attachment points for<br>instruments and hardware as nuts=
erts is appealing too.<br><br>The Titanium is the high tech version and wou=
ld be
<br>free to us. It suffers from needing insulation for the<br>inner working=
s.<br><br>Comments?<br><br>BC<br><br>______________________________________=
_________<br>SS-VehDev mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:SS-VehDev@sugarsho=
t.org">
SS-VehDev@sugarshot.org</a><br><a href=3D"http://www.exrocketry.net/mailman=
/listinfo/ss-vehdev">http://www.exrocketry.net/mailman/listinfo/ss-vehdev</=
a><br><br><br><br></blockquote></div><br>

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From David.Smith2@perkinelmer.com Fri Sep  9 05:40:08 2005
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From: "Smith, David (Beltsville)" <David.Smith2@perkinelmer.com>
To: ss-vehdev@sugarshot.org
Subject: RE: [SS-VehDev] NC Matrix
Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 08:45:20 -0400 
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I think the basic idea of the matrix has merit, however, I think we're still
way too premature regarding things like possible construction techniques,
material selection, etc.

Let's complete the first-order approximations to determine a starting point,
then complete loads and thermal analysis (which most likely will be some
sort of iterative process that will be tied into aerodynamic configuration),
and finally tackle materials and fabrication methods.

My 2 pence.

Cheers-
Dave


-----Original Message-----
From: william colburn [mailto:space1space@sbcglobal.net] 
Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 7:45 PM
To: ss-vehdev@sugarshot.org
Subject: [SS-VehDev] NC Matrix

The matrix gives about the same score for all
candidates. Since it is probably about +/- .5 or so,
the values are really the same.

I am rather in favor of Andrej's composite-over-
honeycomb version. It comes out about even with the
others and even better if he uses carbon composite
too.

The idea of adding the attachment points for
instruments and hardware as nutserts is appealing too.

The Titanium is the high tech version and would be
free to us. It suffers from needing insulation for the
inner workings.

Comments?

BC
From space1space@sbcglobal.net Fri Sep  9 12:54:58 2005
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From: william colburn <space1space@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: RE: [SS-VehDev] NC Matrix
To: "Smith, David \(Beltsville\)" <David.Smith2@perkinelmer.com>,
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